I heartily agree with Iain Dale on this
About Me
- Caroline Hunt
- I'm a Tory, I love films, computer games and happy shiny people. I blog - but it's just a bit of fun.
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53 comments:
Hello.
I concur, Caroline.
I think calling it madness it a touch sensationalist...it's barely a storm in a tea cup and nothing compared to how loopy things will get at the next General Election.
Says the person who has referred to Tim Ireland as a fascist and mentally deranged.
I have never used his name on this blog and I haven't called him mentally deranged on this blog! :)
That's all right then.
IMHO, the worst thing about blogging is unquestionably all the blogging about blogging by bloggers/flame wars/general unpleasantness. ıt's all a waste of time. Perhaps the UN could impose a global moratorium on 'blogging about blogging' Simply put, I believe there are a vast array of meaty issues into which we could all be sinking our teeth.....lets leave the loons well alone.
Boo! Caroline Hunt is eats children!
Caroline,
It was pretty obvious who you were referring to when you said:
I also got to rant at length about a certan blogspat that I don't like to talk about because I don't like to give airtime to that blogging fascist who wants us all to conform to what he considers a "real" political blog.
You made it even clearer when you published a comment from 'henry' and did not challenge or correct this part of his submission:
"Please keep up the good work and yes, Tim Ireland is a fascist."
In fact, your only response was this:
Henry - I thoroughly agree.
You do not have to use a name yourself to be guilty of accusing that person of being a fascist, you know
As for your claim that "I haven't called him mentally deranged on this blog"... well, where exactly *have* you done this? Or have you not done it at all on any blog under any pseudonym?
Wouldn't you like to know ;)
One might be tempted to treat that as an admission, but let's get back to your clear claim of fascism, made and reinforced on your blog under your name.
Do you stand by your claim?
I think you miss the point Guido 2.0 (or Tim Ireland as I presume you are until told otherwise) that I find your whole little crusade a little sad and a little amusing. Really you're only making yourself look stupider.
But yes I I do think Tim Ireland / You are a blogger fascist as you want us all to conform to your views on what a good blog is like.
Chill out - enjoy life a bit. Remember there are more important things out there! Go on - have a little giggle :)
From a psychological perspective Guido 2.0/Tim Ireland's blogging efforts are certainly different.
I do hope that he manages to get the help that he is clearly searching for.
Thank you for confirming that you hold this view and have made this claim.
Tim Ireland is the name, Manic is the handle. Profile and website make that clear, so please stop suggesting otherwise.
Blogging involves the formation of - or integration into - many sets of networked communities that form one large one. Without the networking aspect, all you have is a series of sequential entries.
The *existing* rules that have naturally developed over time via a series of internet-enabled interaction formats (and this relatively new one) are there to protect the community and those who wish to interact with it, and better enable effective discourse within it.
If you do not abide by these rules, then you have no place in the community. If one community in particular does not abide by these rules, they deserve to be shunned by the wider community.
One rule (just as an example): you should not send bulk unsolicited emails to other bloggers promoting your latest venture. There is even a name for this... it is called 'spam'.
Well that's me told - thankyou Mr Blog Policeman! Am I free to go about my business now?
Mr Ireland,
I have been following your grievances and vitriol with growing interest. And I must-forgive me-enquire as to whether you have anything better to do with your time? Clearly, you are a man of leisure.
Could somebody please inform me where the Holy Book of Blogging Rules resides please? I feel it is considerably important to make sure my humble little blog adheres to all established rules and regulations…
Guido 2.0 says that his name is Tim Ireland and his handle is Manic. In the old days we called these things imaginary friends. He'll be needing more than a handle to get a grip.
If one community in particular does not abide by these rules, they deserve to be shunned by the wider community.
Quite right. Consider yourself shunned, pal.
If you do not abide by these rules, then you have no place in the community.
Oh. Really? I must have missed that one. And all the other rules. Are they written in a book of law anywhere? And how are the punishments enforced? When did the governed in this case give their consent to these rules? What gives manic the right to make them/enforce them? I don't recall Devil's Kitchen being shunned, and he doesn't observe any rules other than his own. And he is very much part of the blogging community. Or has manic decided otherwise?
Am I free to go about my business now?
Sure. But you may wish to advertise to your readers that you tolerate/encourage the use of spam, multiple comments from single users with a grudge or agenda, and general small-minded abuse. Just so they know what they're getting.
'John Smith': It's obvious from the early anonymous comments that you've made on your own website that you think that criticising Blair will get under Manic's skin. You haven't even begun to get a handle on this.
Tuscan Tory: Happy to be shunned by you. This saves Manic time and effort.
Others: It does not surprise Manic at all that you are unware of these rules and how they are enforced.
ok, nobody talk to Caroline - she's out of the community.
(she also smells of wee)
Oh this is making me giggle :)
Thank you for your advice over at the Kichen.
Best wishes,
Snob
"Others: It does not surprise Manic at all that you are unware of these rules and how they are enforced."
On this subject, I am happy to admit my ignorance. I am new to this blogging malarkey and was under the impression that the whole ethos of the medium was for individuals to have the freedom to post whatever they liked on their own sites. As this belief appears to be incorrect, I would appreciate it if Guido 2.0 (or anybody else for that matter) could enlighten me (as a new blogger) as to what these rules of blogging are.
Cheers.
If you run a weblog that contains a significant level of political discussion, you really should have some form of comment registration in place or be ready to moderate your arse off. If you don't do either, you lay fertile ground for anonymous bullies who seek to limit free speech by undermining and intimidating those they don't agree with (while simultaneously screaming about their right to free speech).
John makes a ton of valid points above. In all honesty, I find Mr Ireland’s curious fixation on the need for “rules” in blogging to be quite unfathomable. The blogosphere will remain I hope a free for all, a frenzy of discourse, a melange of fact, opinion, bile and wit (depending on the emphasis of the blog author in question). We each have our own style and lines of attack. We are not journalists.We don’t wish to be.I write whatever I damn well please. If the blogosphere has any value, it lies in the fact that it is largely unfeterred by convention or obeisance to external authority.....As for comment moderation, that should be an optional extra not a requirement.
The web offers such a wide range of political outlets really I think people should go where they choose. If I want relatively friendly debate of issues I tend to go to the LDYS forums, if I want to see childish humour and namecalling I go to Guido, and if I want to hear what other people think of my views I post on my own blog. I do understand the point Tim makes about comment moderation - I just flatly disagree with it. It's up to each site / blog etc. how they choose to run their discussions and it's up to the "viewers" to decide where they go and where they don't. No-one, however long they have been involved in blogging, has the right to dictate a conformity for all blogs. The blogosphere would become a very boring place if we did all agree.
In case anyone is interested in how the comments on this blog are run - anyone can post what they like, even anonymously. I do delete insults against me when they are of a deeply personal nature but that hasn't really happened since the Conservative Future elections! I love forums so I can rarely resist replying to comments!
http://hobycartoons.blogspot.com/2007/01/blog-wars.html
Guido 2.0; I thank you for taking the trouble to enlighten me as to what I assume is merely one rule of blogging. I make the assumption more then one rule has “naturally developed over time”. Would you be so kind as to point out some of the other rules
for me please?
Caroline,
A fire does not stop spreading simply because you turn your back on it. In fact, it's usually when you do this that a fire spreads out of control.
What has been happening and Paul's and Iain's blogs has been spreading.
Yes, it is up to each blog author to decide how they run their own website (and it would be very rude, for example, for someone to post material on your website that made you vulnerable to a libel case), but authors should treat their power responsibly and they should be expected to be called on it if they take the piss and/or threaten the rights of others to not agree on everything, but instead be able to conduct a sane and fair debate... on their weblog and in the wider community.
That is what is being dealt with now as (surprise, surprise) the same spin, the same 'anonymous bully' tactics and the same astro-turf techniques are being used to shout down or pollute what is really being said.
Speaking of such things, you seem assuming a *lot* about actions proposed to correct the recent decay... and you seem to be basing your assumptions on spin originating from the two blogs mentioned above. This would be a mistake.
PS - To only delete insults against you would be a terribly selfish and irresponsible thing to do as a moderator.
John Moorcraft said:
"I am new to this blogging malarkey and was under the impression that the whole ethos of the medium was for individuals to have the freedom to post whatever they liked on their own sites."
I think you'll find that even in this new playground many people are now playing in, libel is still an issue.
Meaning, calling someone a "fascist" is still a dodgy thing to do.
Sorry if that impinges on Caroline's desire to "Chill out - enjoy life a bit", but if you want to join the world of journalism... be it on papers, on radio, on TV or on the web, then - in the immortal words of Sweet and their lovely little ditty Blockbuster "You better beware, you better take care
You better watch out if you've got long black hair."
But you go right ahead John, don't mind me, or the libel laws.
I'm only a qualified journalist, what do I know, eh?
much love
Hmmmmm spend all night replying to these messages in a measured and sensible fashion or ignore it for now and wait for the backlash when Tim see's what I said about him on Doughty Street....yeah I'll choose the latter.
Caroline said: "Hmmmmm spend all night replying to these messages in a measured and sensible fashion or ignore it for now and wait for the backlash when Tim see's what I said about him on Doughty Street....yeah I'll choose the latter."
Ah, you'll do well in blogland then. Turn the Clannad off before you go to bed. And put your stirring spoon away in the dishwasher.
Tsk, tsk. Kids, eh?
How odd. You shun polite debate and seek a fight that starts with the sound of your flapping lips. What happened to 'Stop the Madness'...?
Tim if you genuinely want a serious conversation with me - email me. I've outlined my views on you and your campaign very clearly above. I'm not going to drag this out into a 50 post comments section between me and you. It's very boring for everyone else.
If you then want to publish the email responses you get from me that is fine. But really. The comments section of my blog is for friendly banter - not extended discussion. I go to forums for that.
Caroline
Go
To
Bed.
You know it's well past Horlickstime...
(is this friendly banter? it's so hard to tell on political websites these days...)
Carl,
Many thanks for pointing that blogs are subject to the laws of the land. I kind of made that assumption already and my previous post was concerned with understanding the “existing rules that have naturally developed over time via a series of internet-enabled interaction formats” that have previously been referred to by Guido 2.0. So far I have learnt that blogs are subject to the laws of the land and that bloggers authoring websites with substantial political content should consider either having comment registration in place or be prepared to do lots of moderating.
All I want to know is what the other rules specific to blogging are (assuming of course more then just these 2 rules exists). This is a desire not motivated by seeking to defend one side or another in any particular pitched battle (I knew nothing of these so called blogwars until today and I think both sides have made both good and bad points), but by my thirst for knowledge on subjects that capture my interest
Much love
You brought it up, Caroline. In fact, you brought it up here.
If people don't want to read this then - *gasp* - they don't have to, do they?
We're not doing anyone any harm; the usual slagging and trolling has been kept to a minimum.
So... where were we?
Ah yes, you were saying that people had a right to express opinions freely on the web and a point was made about breeding grounds for the types of fucktards who seek to restrict this freedom with a variety of dishonest and bullying tactics.
Let's take it from there in the morning, shall we?
Bless you John Moorcraft.
Not being a blogger, I wouldn't know the rules specific to blogging...
I know, awful, eh?
I come on 'ere, mouthing off, not a clue about the blogosphere, Tch. I should be birched. No, really, I should.
However, from what I've been watching over the last few days, actually, the last few years, is a kind of "netiquette" which goes back to the days pre-blogging. It kind of goes back to the days before the internet when the only inter-connecting system was between universities. I recall *starts puffing on pipe* student friends of mine in the early 1990s contacting people across the campus using interconnected groups of computers.
Later that moved to between universities, and then between universities in different countries.
I think it almost goes back beyond then, but then, I'm not a web-historian.
I know from talking to Tim Ireland in the past he does go back a long way with that kind of experience. I have other friends who, while not as prolific, or as in the "mainstream" of blogging, also go back that far and have a very similar attitude to the concept of netiquette.
I'd best hand the explanation over to Tim who is far more knowledgable than I on the matter.
and much love back at you.
And no, you can't convince me to get blogging. I've a proper job to be getting on with tonight. I can't dilly dally around here all the time, urging young conservatives to climb the wooden hill to bedforshire...
Tim Ireland, you are a nasty obsessive fascist who will not go away.
The only person I can compare you to in terms of obsession and general unpleasantness is the one and only Chad Noble.
Yes, I did agree with Caroline about you being a fascist, because you are. I'm a real person and I live in Herefordshire. I enjoy the work of bloggers, except when they write about blogging (meta-blogging) and when mongs like you start blog wars over nothing.
*Sigh* - Tim, my point from the beginning to the end has been that you fanaticals obsession with how others runs their blogs is disturbing and, yes, fascist in nature.
Until you turned up here today myblog has always beena friendly and harmonious place. Everyone has the right to moderate their blogs as they like. I have never had to moderate my blog (aside from as I say personal insults - and when I say personal insults I don't mean people disagreeinng with me - you need to learn the difference I think)
However in light of the diharmony you have caused my blog in 24 hours I have forthwith banned you from commenting on here and I'm putting comment moderation on.
As I say (since I'm sure your blog will say I'm refusing to communicate with you) please email me if you want to discuss any of these matters with me (I'm sure Chick Yog can give you the address)
OK fine I'm overreacting. Darn it he actually wound me up enough for me to do something irrational. Alright Tim Ireland isn't banned from making comments here (Even though I don't make comments on his blog!) - but I am leaving comment moderation on for a bit. No personal insults like "fucktard" please. Relevant and polite points only.
Caroline, that was a bit naughty. You appear to be suggesting that a certain someone called *you* an f-word. This is not so.... unless you regard yourself to be someone who uses dishonest and bullying tactics.
The call for 'less personal insults' is a bit rich too, considering.
No matter. Happy to pick it up in the morning, as previously outlined.
PS - You are welcome to comment at Bloggerheads, but it is interesting that you think some form of reciprocal arrangement is required when you insist that 'anyone can post what they like' here.
Caroline Hunt said...
Oh this is making me giggle :)
2/13/2007 05:26:00 PM
Caroline Hunt said...
However in light of the diharmony you have caused my blog in 24 hours I have forthwith banned you from commenting on here and I'm putting comment moderation on.
2/13/2007 10:15:00 PM
Bad journey home from work? Anyway, this comment will probably be moderated, but what the heck. Caroline, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to be cat-like and mess in other folks' backyards, then don't be surprised if there's spillover into your own blog.
Anyway, I'd like to make a couple of points. No one is trying to tell people how to run their blogs. What Tim and others having been trying to do is trying to highlight the dangers in ignoring widely held, long-term modes of online conduct, commonly known as netiquette. At its most simplistic this covers the use of emoticons, something most people grasp. Digging deeper, this also includes the belief that revisionism (selective deleting and editing) is consider asocial if not abhorrent. It is no different to the social mores that govern our conduct everyday in the real world. There are consequences to breaching them. You might consider it acceptable to randomly hit people with a club as you go about your daily business, something considered socially unacceptable. If we all followed such an example, then chaos would soon follow.
My second point concerns the inadequacies of your challenge. In this I agree with George Orwell who, as long ago as 1944, stated that "the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print." It gives the impression of an inadequately framed argument, a response produced for the sake of responding confrontationally without consideration of the details of the point being debated. Its value as a response is down there with "bovvered" or "whatever". If you desire good-natured debate, then don't just jump in with your fellow travellers and start making uninformed comments.
As I said before, you'll probably block this comment, but if you don't then good on you.
PS - Has Blue Shark jumped itself yet?
Ah... the Fonz... jump the shark... takes me back to those Happy Days.
Netiquette! Now that is something I know a little about because of my past association with various computer people (who used to get somewhat animated whenever a bad word was said about RFC 1855). If my memory serves me correctly, what constitutes good and bad netiquette is open to considerable contestation and the concept was originally intended to act as merely a set of recommendations rather then hard and fast rules by which all users of the internet must adhere to (with the possible exception of “Remember the Human” if the old memory is working properly…).
Indeed, if one may test my memory to its breaking point, I would go so far to say that quite a few of us on this comments thread have already been guilty of violating principles accepted by many as good netiquette when it comes to using expletives. One wonders what Virginia Shea would make of those who use words such as “fucktard”! :-)
For the record, I actually have some sympathy with those who seek to apply netiquette to the bloggersphere. As a conservative, the whole concept of a pragmatically changing net-etiquette has some appeal to me! However, one cannot help by wonder whether the explosion of internet usage in recent years has created a monster untameable by the traditionalists. The threat to shun if netiquette was not adhered to unquestionably had some potency back in the day when less people were on the internet. One wonders whether the same threat carries so much weight since the internet become commonplace in our homes…
John Moorcraft said: "However, one cannot help by wonder whether the explosion of internet usage in recent years has created a monster untameable by the traditionalists."
True, but that doesn't mean bloggers shouldn't try. I hark back to the days of CB radio and the etiquette of language and behaviour. It's not so dissimilar in many ways.
But this issue here is not the same. This goes beyond etiquette - it's more about copying the worst behaviour of political bloggers in the run up to the Bush elections, using slander, innuendo, lies, smear, crushing open debate, faking commentators. Basically a blogger acting more like a politician than the polititians do. All done without restraints, using bullyboy let's-gang-up-on-the-people-who-question-us tactics.
It's very dirty and it's not conducive to the blogosphere (well, let's be honest - the political part of the blogosphere) being taken more seriously.
Well, that's my tuppenceworth anyway.
Message for Tim Ireland...
Please get a life you obsessive attention whore.
Your farcical attempts at positioning yourself as some paragon of etiquette have shown you up as a vindictive, talentless opportunist. You have leeched off the back of another blogger, of whose success you are jealous, in an crude attempt to drive your own traffic and court attention.
It is not for you to tell other people what standards they should adopt on their own personal weblogs. If people do not approve of what they read or how a blog is operated, they will go elsewhere of their own accord. Your behaviour and conduct insults the intelligence of blog readers.
Why do you not just focus on writing your musings on your site and leave others to read what they will?
Bill Hicks, genius that he was , had no time for marketing people like Tim Ireland. Tim should listen to Billy a lot more.
Hello Caroline.
Shall we pick up where we left off?
(If you wish, in order to keep matters as civil, efficient and on-topic as possible, we can ignore rants, trolls and other distractions.)
Manic will take that as a 'no'....
Farewell, Caroline. Good luck with the sharks.
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